1 00:00:00,570 --> 00:00:05,220 Hi, it's Chris Watkin here, and I am with Estate Agency Royalty Mr Peter Knight. 2 00:00:05,220 --> 00:00:10,660 Thanks for coming down to London to see me Peter. What I'd like to do is talk about The Property Academy's 3 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:16,160 Best Estate Agent Guide, how it is measured, judged, the good things, the bad things, 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,990 your Homemovers’ Survey and about what is happening in the UK Estate & Letting Agency industry. 5 00:00:21,990 --> 00:00:25,400 What we can do to help the boys and girls out there in Estate Agency land? 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:32,910 Firstly, for those people who have been living in a cave, what is the Best Estate Agency Guide? 7 00:00:32,910 --> 00:00:50,079 Peter: First of all, thank you for having me here Chris. It is now our 3rd year of doing the Best Estate Agency Guide 8 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:56,750 and I remember Iain Kennedy of Rightmove saying to me, when we first launched, this will take you 3 years to get it right, 9 00:00:56,750 --> 00:01:01,780 and crickey he was bang on! It has taken us 3 years to evolve it and to move it to where it is now 10 00:01:01,780 --> 00:01:08,130 and I am really happy about it now. 11 00:01:08,130 --> 00:01:11,950 I hope that your viewers and everybody else in the industry will be too. 12 00:01:11,950 --> 00:01:21,500 What we have done once again is assessed every single listing that has appeared on Rightmove over a 6-8 month period 13 00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:28,790 so that's about 1 milliion+ listings on Rightmove at any one time. 14 00:01:28,790 --> 00:01:37,720 We then measure their performance on what we call the "same patch". 15 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,610 So if you take Grantham, for instance, and there are a number of estate agents in Grantham, 16 00:01:41,610 --> 00:01:47,299 we don't take Grantham as a patch, we take each estate agency branch in the area, 17 00:01:47,299 --> 00:01:53,299 We measure their patch by methodology, whereby, whenever they have listed a property for sale or to let - that's their patch. 18 00:01:53,299 --> 00:02:00,370 So, if you had an agency in Grantham who covered a wider area, their listings would be compared against a wider patch. 19 00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:04,203 If you had a branch that was covering a smaller area, 20 00:02:04,203 --> 00:02:10,110 because it is part of a network of 3 or 4 offices in the same proximity, their patches are narrower. 21 00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:16,970 We measure the performance of those listings over a 6-8 month period, 22 00:02:16,970 --> 00:02:23,770 basically, to ask “did they sell or let”, “how well were the properties marketed”, 23 00:02:23,770 --> 00:02:28,640 we measure that by the number of property views, click-throughs, 24 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:41,280 the photographs, floorplan, etc and then, 3 billion pieces of data (so it is a rather large spreadsheet) 25 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:48,850 enables us to then determine which are the best-performing branches. From that stage, we then aggregate the branch scores to create and find the top agencies. 26 00:02:48,850 --> 00:02:56,250 Chris: How many measures have you got in there? 27 00:02:56,250 --> 00:03:02,200 Peter: In total there are almost 50 measurements, 32 of them are on the mystery shop and 18 are on the data. 28 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:14,390 This exercise is done Chris, completely FREE of charge. 29 00:03:14,390 --> 00:03:22,040 Rightmove account managers will be able to share all of the findings in terms of the data assessment for FREE with all of their estate agency members. 30 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,150 We, at The Property Academy, will have the answers to the mystery shop which we have carried out. 31 00:03:26,150 --> 00:03:32,090 Estate agents can find out how they've done, where they can improve, 32 00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:41,961 and we can all improve, let's be blunt here, and also, of course, 33 00:03:41,961 --> 00:03:45,170 they have the opportunity to congratulate their team members when they have done an exceptional job. 34 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:49,500 There have been many examples of agents delivering exceptional performance 35 00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:54,480 and it's those that have ended up winning a Best Estate Agent Guide Award. 36 00:03:54,480 --> 00:04:06,060 Chris: So, 17 or 18 Rightmove datapoints - how did you judge them? What were the metrics? 37 00:04:06,060 --> 00:04:15,120 Peter: The principal ones were - Did it sell or let? Yes or no? 38 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:22,720 Did it come back onto the market? In other words, did it fall through? 39 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:28,690 How long was it marketed for? During that period of time, how many page views did it get? How many click-throughs did it get? 40 00:04:28,690 --> 00:04:41,210 We know from all of our consumer research what customers feel is important to them; 41 00:04:41,210 --> 00:04:55,310 These are the main things – the quality of the marketing of their property, 42 00:04:55,310 --> 00:05:01,960 The numbers of photographs, floorplans etc (which also have a bearing on click-through rate) 43 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:07,210 and of course, that also has a bearing in terms of its positioning in the market in terms of pricing. 44 00:05:07,210 --> 00:05:12,510 If it is under-priced or over-priced, it will have an impact in terms of the number of views and so on. 45 00:05:12,510 --> 00:05:18,060 Then we have the mystery shop,we have 32 different metrics to measure. 46 00:05:18,060 --> 00:05:24,940 Chris: What does the mystery shop look like? 47 00:05:24,940 --> 00:05:33,170 Peter: There were 4 things that we hoped to identify based on our Homemovers’ trends survey, that we've been doing for 10 years. 48 00:05:33,170 --> 00:05:38,900 On that point, this year we are actually publishing a summary of the 10 years combined insights and the changes over that time. 49 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:48,060 We have engaged with a professional research company to assist us with that analysis, 50 00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:53,420 because it is pretty huge; we assess 5000 sellers, 5000 landlords and 5000 tenants each year; 51 00:05:53,420 --> 00:06:00,831 So, we have well over 100,000 pieces of data. 52 00:06:00,831 --> 00:06:08,610 Chris: I've got back copies that I have kept and it is amazing how not much has changed but certain things have evolved. 53 00:06:08,610 --> 00:06:17,250 Peter: Absolutely, you are right, there are certain principles that are constant, we still measure them though, 54 00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:23,020 and other things that vary, and I'm afraid one of those things 55 00:06:23,020 --> 00:06:31,210 (that we shall touch on in another video) 56 00:06:31,210 --> 00:06:36,389 is fee levels charged. So what people tell us is that marketing is really important because that makes them feel they will get the result that they want, 57 00:06:36,389 --> 00:06:41,550 which I think is a reasonable 58 00:06:41,550 --> 00:06:49,900 conclusion, and the second thing they tell us is whether they can trust the agent or not, do they like them? 59 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:55,340 Now the issue we had was that if you ask somebody how you measure likability or trust someone, 60 00:06:55,340 --> 00:06:58,860 the chances are that they will not be able to tell you. 61 00:06:58,860 --> 00:07:01,590 Chris: It isn't a number is it? 62 00:07:01,590 --> 00:07:05,450 Peter: It's not, and we wanted to make this very much based upon data rather than subjective opinion. 63 00:07:05,450 --> 00:07:05,950 So, what we drilled it down to when we asked other questions of these people actively selling or letting their property 64 00:07:05,950 --> 00:07:18,700 was 4 key things that make up together likability and trust: 65 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:29,280 PROFESSIONALISM & CURTESY. LISTENING & UNDERSTANDING. 66 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:38,370 KNOWLEDGE & INFORMATION. RESPONSIVENESS. 67 00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:45,530 Those were the 4 ingredients that through our surveys we were able to identify that added up to likeability and trustworthiness. 68 00:07:45,530 --> 00:07:50,720 In our mystery shops for the BEAG we set a series of questions that were ‘yes/no’ answers, 69 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:58,110 so I shall give you an example: Responsiveness, let's take that one... 70 00:07:58,110 --> 00:08:03,740 Was the phone answered - yes or no? Was the email answered - yes or no? 71 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:08,220 Chris: So how many phone calls or emails did every agent get? 72 00:08:08,220 --> 00:08:15,110 Peter: Well there are 20,000 in total that we carried out, each agent received one call per branch for sales, one call per branch for lettings, 73 00:08:15,110 --> 00:08:21,290 one web enquiry for sales and one for lettings. Chris: Was the enquirer being a buyer or vendor or landlord or tenant? 74 00:08:21,290 --> 00:08:28,710 Peter: Principally as a buyer and a tenant, 75 00:08:28,710 --> 00:08:34,469 you'll know from our previous conversations that I believe the customer is 4-dimensional 76 00:08:34,469 --> 00:08:39,200 and I do not believe they should be treated differently because they are coming to an agent as a tenant or as a landlord, 77 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:52,290 they could be one and the same. They often are! And what was staggering once again, 78 00:08:52,290 --> 00:09:04,270 and I've got these stats for you, hot off the press, we found that there were some shocking responses. 79 00:09:04,270 --> 00:09:12,970 Sales calls - 14% went unanswered. All these calls were made during business hours Monday to Friday. 80 00:09:12,970 --> 00:09:24,750 On the lettings side - it was the same 15% went unanswered. 81 00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:36,649 In terms of web enquiries - 27% on sales were not answered within a day (that is better than last year which was 52%) 82 00:09:36,649 --> 00:09:49,500 although on lettings - 35 %. Here is the interesting thing, although our mystery shoppers posed as buyers 83 00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:56,620 they also if somebody asked, would say they had a property to sell or rent. 84 00:09:56,620 --> 00:10:02,380 In other words, their scripts allowed for the conversation and it was down to the agent to ask the question rather than the information just being volunteered. 85 00:10:02,380 --> 00:10:08,630 Chris: So the buyers were ringing up and potentially had a property to sell 86 00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:13,860 and you are going to announce the number at the EA Masters 2019 87 00:10:13,860 --> 00:10:20,690 of the number of agents who did not even ask the question... 88 00:10:20,690 --> 00:10:27,630 Peter: There is another number that I am happy to share with you, 89 00:10:27,630 --> 00:10:31,450 Chris. Not only did the buyers pose as potential sellers as well, and therefore 90 00:10:31,450 --> 00:10:35,380 there was the opportunity for the agent to ask the question to say "have you got a property to sell?" 91 00:10:35,380 --> 00:10:40,830 "would you like a valuation from us?" but one stat I will share with you is they were enquiring about specific properties 92 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:50,900 and they were waiting to be asked to view the property and had they done so they would have actually made an appointment 93 00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:56,380 (and subsequently, we'd have cancelled this) 94 00:10:56,380 --> 00:11:07,750 what if I told you that 27% on sales calls, were not even asked if they wanted to book a viewing appointment. 95 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:14,250 Chris: Let's be frank here, there is a lot of people complaining about Rightmove 96 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:19,290 at the moment and their costs and I've gone on record to say I think they are good value for money, 97 00:11:19,290 --> 00:11:27,670 but if agents aren't actually a) answering the phone calls b) asking for a valuation 98 00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:37,650 c) or asking for a viewing appointment - no wonder they are not doing very well. 99 00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:42,600 Peter: Well let’s put it into context, the best ones do all of those things exceptionally well. 100 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,780 Chris: But this is basic stuff! Peter: It is and that is why I keep saying to people when they ask me 101 00:11:47,780 --> 00:11:52,880 "What have you got to do to win?" the answer is very simple, do the ordinary things extraordinarily well. 102 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,080 Just do the basics brilliantly well. 103 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,381 And by the way, the basics are good for the customer, they are also good for the agent. 104 00:12:03,381 --> 00:12:08,770 The customer is wanting to be looked after. They want a service. 105 00:12:08,770 --> 00:12:21,460 Chris: Why do you think that we as an industry are not very good at it? I am not talking about the best agents, 106 00:12:21,460 --> 00:12:27,250 I am talking about the vanilla agents. Peter: Well I think it is a combination of a few things, so 107 00:12:27,250 --> 00:12:34,060 1) I think that we employ people, quite frankly, who are not fit for purpose in this industry in too many places 108 00:12:34,060 --> 00:12:42,240 and sometimes the culture that we create for those people 109 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:48,810 around methods of remuneration etc are not actually fostering service, they actually 110 00:12:48,810 --> 00:12:54,560 cultivate a climate of mediocracy and if someone is not prepared to transact with them straight 111 00:12:54,560 --> 00:13:03,700 away they are dismissed as time-wasters, tyre-kickers and so on. 2) A lack of proper systems and 112 00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:10,529 processes and those 2 things combined add up to massive variations in service. So there 113 00:13:10,529 --> 00:13:17,450 are certain brands with more than one branch some with a substantial number, where the 114 00:13:17,450 --> 00:13:20,640 service from one branch is quite extraordinarily brilliant, best in class, but you call another 115 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:27,089 branch in the same company and it is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum and 116 00:13:27,089 --> 00:13:33,100 maybe a third branch somewhere in the middle. The very best firms and I have to say, one 117 00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:41,970 of the things that have come out of our analysis Chris is, the bigger the firm gets on average, 118 00:13:41,970 --> 00:13:47,670 the poorer its average performance. Chris: Bigger the branch or bigger the network? Peter: 119 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:52,740 Bigger the network. If I added up all of the scores of the single branch businesses and 120 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:59,570 averaged them out, they would score better overall that the small size band (2 - 5 branches) 121 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:05,390 and they, in turn, would perform better than the mediums (6-20) and the mediums would perform 122 00:14:05,390 --> 00:14:12,050 better than the large (21+). And this has been consistent across the years we have been 123 00:14:12,050 --> 00:14:18,470 doing this assessment, that the very very best businesses tend to be the single branch 124 00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:26,070 businesses or the small ones, the independent estate agents. Now, there are exceptions, 125 00:14:26,070 --> 00:14:33,080 and you do get some branches within big corporates who have done exceptionally well and who deliver 126 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,230 a phenomenal service, but I'm afraid that as a general rule of thumb the bigger the 127 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:42,300 business gets the poorer it's average performance. Chris: Why do you think that is? Peter: I 128 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:49,510 think it's the difference between ownership and proper engagement and ultimately the people 129 00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:54,839 that own and run a business have a different level of commitment to those who are just 130 00:14:54,839 --> 00:15:00,900 employed in the business. Chris: Do you think, apart from the odd ones, do you think that 131 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:05,959 the bigger businesses could offer as good a service as a one-man band? Peter: I do because 132 00:15:05,959 --> 00:15:11,080 I think ultimately that is down to systems and processes and, in fact, they have more 133 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,010 resources. I mean, they should be able to manage these processes, but I fear that perhaps 134 00:15:16,010 --> 00:15:22,260 their drivers are not so much a service driver, it's a commercial driver. Chris: Do you think 135 00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:28,209 we are too transactional as an industry as opposed to being relationship builders for 136 00:15:28,209 --> 00:15:35,160 the long term? Peter: I do on the basis that if you look at what so many traditional estate 137 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:42,550 agents market themselves as, "we provide a professional, premium service" I hear this 138 00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:47,120 statement a lot, what does it actually constitute? And to my mind, things like answering the 139 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:52,700 phone during working hours and responding to an email enquiry in 24-hours that is hardly 140 00:15:52,700 --> 00:16:00,089 a premium service. That is page one estate agency. And, in far too many cases it's just 141 00:16:00,089 --> 00:16:06,519 not being delivered on. However, let me just set the balance right, those that do and there 142 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:15,649 are many examples we've identified the top 3% broadly speaking about 500 (approximately) 143 00:16:15,649 --> 00:16:24,360 agencies in sales and in lettings that are the absolute best across the performance and 144 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:29,500 the customer service. So it's not some sort of smoke-filled room with a bunch of people 145 00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:34,260 sitting around deciding who is going to win this year, it's based upon a proper assessment 146 00:16:34,260 --> 00:16:41,320 of the marketplace with every single branch and every single listing. Chris: You said 147 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,970 the Rightmove account manager can show an agent the details of how the stats were worked 148 00:16:46,970 --> 00:16:52,089 out and do you say they have access to the mystery shop. Peter: Yes, after the EA Masters 149 00:16:52,089 --> 00:16:58,500 we will be releasing all of the information on the mystery shops. What we can't do is 150 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:06,980 say anything to identify an individual, so we will not share the time of the call, the 151 00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:12,169 day it was made etc because that would, under GDPR responsibilities, identify data that 152 00:17:12,169 --> 00:17:20,490 people have not opted-in for. What we will give is the scores, in terms of - you answered 153 00:17:20,490 --> 00:17:27,399 the phone - yes/no - the goal is to help estate agents to fulfil their potential, that's our 154 00:17:27,399 --> 00:17:31,909 purpose. It is to help people to fulfil their potential. And a big reason why we set this 155 00:17:31,909 --> 00:17:37,470 up and a massive driver for Rightmove too, was to assist agents in raising the standards 156 00:17:37,470 --> 00:17:42,259 of the service that they deliver to the consumer. So, we want to share this information with 157 00:17:42,259 --> 00:17:46,289 people so that they can see for themselves how they did. They will then have an opportunity 158 00:17:46,289 --> 00:17:50,390 to improve on it for next year. Chris: How do you feel about the naysayers, those that 159 00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:55,640 deride what you are trying to do? Let's be frank, you are running a business and if someone 160 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,309 wins, they are automatically entered in the BEA Guide. They don't have to pay to be in 161 00:17:58,309 --> 00:18:03,700 the guide, but if they want the stickers and the marketing pack behind it, they have to 162 00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:09,590 pay. How do you feel about those doom-mongerers? Peter: There are always going to be critics 163 00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:18,679 and particularly those who hide behind the fictitious pseudonyms, I don't mind engaging 164 00:18:18,679 --> 00:18:23,870 with anybody on a face-to-face basis or over the phone and I have had many conversations, 165 00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:30,600 and some of the criticisms have been really helpful, we have evolved things over the 3 166 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:36,710 years. The first year we got it wrong in terms of the mystery shop being 50% of the score 167 00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:44,320 now it is only 20% of the score. We didn't include market share as a criterion, and we 168 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:50,389 do now. It's not as important criteria to the consumer as it is to the agent who owns 169 00:18:50,389 --> 00:18:56,340 a business, but it is a factor, so we include it. We have revised the whole mystery shop 170 00:18:56,340 --> 00:19:02,759 process, we used to have a question the shoppers used to be asked, "how did the agent make 171 00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:06,679 you feel?" which we felt was too subjective with the numbers that we had. So we've eliminated 172 00:19:06,679 --> 00:19:11,629 anything that could be subjective. So we’ve taken on board a lot of these comments and 173 00:19:11,629 --> 00:19:23,190 I am not sure we have even got it 100% right yet, but we will not stop striving for 100% 174 00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:30,470 and my guess is that year one we got it 80+% right and I now believe we've got it 90+% 175 00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:33,730 right. We will continue to push for it, but I know we'll always get the critics. There 176 00:19:33,730 --> 00:19:41,030 are going to be those who say it is just a money-making exercise, I often reply "so do 177 00:19:41,030 --> 00:19:46,250 you charge for your estate agency services?" we're in business and my business is about 178 00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:51,429 helping people to fulfil their potential. The big thing is though, about my business, 179 00:19:51,429 --> 00:19:54,919 is you don't have to subscribe to it, you don't have to become a member of the Property 180 00:19:54,919 --> 00:20:00,379 Academy, you don't have to buy a BEAG Licence, you do not have to come to the EA Masters, 181 00:20:00,379 --> 00:20:02,779 it is totally their choice! Chris: You wouldn't believe how many people are saying you have 182 00:20:02,779 --> 00:20:10,590 to buy a certain Rightmove subscription. Peter: When we publish the winners list, the critics 183 00:20:10,590 --> 00:20:18,299 said "you only give awards to people who buy tickets" well we announced the winners (not 184 00:20:18,299 --> 00:20:25,240 the shortlist) before the tickets even went on sale. Another direct response to agents 185 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,559 saying to us "the surprise on the day is nice if you've won" but actually if you brought 186 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:38,840 your team and you've come all the way to London and you've had a great day, yes it's expensive, 187 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,720 and then you don't win, it's more disappointing. Chris: So, they are only saying that you are 188 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,270 announcing the winners first in order to sell more tickets! Peter: Well you cannot win, 189 00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:49,129 can you? Luckily, we sell out every year and therefore we don't actually need to market 190 00:20:49,129 --> 00:20:55,389 in an aggressive manner, we know that people will come because we've been doing this for 191 00:20:55,389 --> 00:21:00,520 20 years. Only 3 years it has been the EA Masters prior to that it was the Estate Agency 192 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:07,859 of the Year Awards. So, we have a long record if you like, of delivering the best events. 193 00:21:07,859 --> 00:21:13,200 This year again we've sought to raise the bar in every single dimension and the quality 194 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,690 of the speakers and the workbooks we are going to be providing and the insights we are going 195 00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:22,720 to share we think will be second to none. But of course, the people will be the judges 196 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,940 of that. Oh, and by the way, we will be live streaming it this year for FREE so if they 197 00:21:26,940 --> 00:21:34,640 do not want to buy a ticket to the event they can watch it via the Rightmove Hub. For FREE! 198 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:40,889 This whole criticism it amuses me, it used to frustrate me, but now it amuses me because 199 00:21:40,889 --> 00:21:47,620 every time someone comes in with a criticism we take it on board and we are in business, 200 00:21:47,620 --> 00:21:54,169 ultimately, so if we don't make a profit then we can't sustain this activity. But the driver 201 00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:59,989 and purpose for setting up these awards in the first place, is to redress the balance, 202 00:21:59,989 --> 00:22:05,700 the media has been so critical of estate agents for so many years and it was in response to 203 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:10,382 that, that we first set up the first awards. To basically say, you know what, there are 204 00:22:10,382 --> 00:22:14,009 some really good estate agents out there and they don't get recognised, and they don't 205 00:22:14,009 --> 00:22:19,399 get acknowledged for what they do, and we set up the awards, principally to redress 206 00:22:19,399 --> 00:22:25,220 that balance. And Chris, for the first 5 years we lost money on it, a lot of money, we almost 207 00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:33,519 pulled it. We actually thought we've had a go but financially it was a significant amount 208 00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:37,070 of money that we lost but we persevered with it because we knew it was the right thing 209 00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:37,259 to do!